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Does anyone feel intense pressure to marry jewish, from family members or friends and others... I find it difficult to limit myself... I love who I love and there isn't much I can do about that. If I find a Jewish woman, Awsome if not AWSome as well.
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i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 2:48 AMwell brother, as a child of an interfaith marriage, i feel i can tell you it doesn't work. you can say that this is my experience only, that you're not religious, etc.
my mother converted - an orthodox conversion - mainly bc she felt like a leper in our family (her family were white trash whom we've wisely discarded) and then they had an orthodox wedding. i'm grateful that my judaism cannot be questioned in any way, but i've got to tell you, there is no way to inflict greater hell on your children than to marry out of faith. we have a few friends in this tribe who seem to have had more success with interfaith marriages, but i think it's the exception to the rule.
why set yourself up for divorce and your kids for pain and suffering? i love everyone too, and i'm attracted to non-jewish men all the time. this is one of the reasons i've moved to israel where my non-jewish selection is narrower. thirty some years later and everyone i know in my situation wishes their parents had a little more forethought. -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 7:18 AMSpastic-
Very interesting approach, but Logan said nothing about having kids- just marriage.
Logan- you have to make the only decision right for you. All your friends and family pressuring you to marry a jew is fine and dandy for them- they don't have to live a loveless marriage. Follow your heart without regrets. You only have to answer to yourself, and you are ultimately responsible for your own happiness. If you feel that happiness can be optimized with interfaith marriages- then it's your choice and you have to deal with both the perks and consequences. -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 9:40 AMRight On Mike:
That Is primarily the way I feal about the situation. Optimal to marry interfaith but not the end of the world if I do not...
Spastic: Any children I put forth on this Earth will be wonderful, bright and beautiful souls that probably even you would want to know.
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 12:33 PMI for one feel intense pressure - not from my family, but for myself. I'm not a religious person, but my culture is a tremendous part of my identity and a huge anchoring point for me. I can't imagine marrying someone who wasn't sympathetic to that.
Logan didn't mention children, but they *do* tend to show up with the whole marriage thing. I for one feel a duty to make sure my eventual offspring feel a tie to the Jewish culture, if not faith. How possible is that in an interfaith situation? Anyone have any experiences with that, either growing up or raising kids? -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Sat, May 15, 2004 - 7:15 AMThis is where I fall...and although my parents were both technically Jewish, they came from such different levels of observance that I grew up quite confused. Being Jewish is now extremely important to me. My parents don't care at all if I marry Jewish...but I want to share it with someone.
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 10:39 AM>this is one of the reasons i've moved to israel where my non->jewish selection is narrower.
NY would be closer wouldn't it? There are millions of jews in NYC. -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 10:43 AMBut what about those that do feel pressured? Have you read Portnoy's Complaint?! That sums it up! Moving to Israel or NY is not an option for your average person. One can feel a close connection to his religion and culture without having to be close to Israel. What do you do about the pressure then? -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 11:19 AMlogan, i'm sure your children will be beautiful, wonderful people. and i'm as happy to know you as the future them. but i know what can happen to them even if you stay together and are relatively happy. (and what are the chances of that thesedays?)
adam, your portnoy's complaint post to another thread made me laugh out loud and i meant to respond. i couldn't get through it bc the endless descriptions of him whacking off feverishly in the bathroom really grossed me out. and his family are so tedious. it's enough to have to live with people like that in the world - who wants to read about them? interesting in hearing your take on this. -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 11:53 AMspastic,
I will admit, there was a gratuitous amount of self pleasuring going on in that book...but it just shows something Alexander was obssesed about, just as his mother was obssesed with her son being a proper boy, or his father obssesed with his bowels. It is the classic Jewish neurotic fixation.
You say that you lived with people like that, so you understand. They say Portnoy's Complaint may not be Phillip Roth's best book, but it certainly is speaking to me. It is an extreme (a big extreme) of my Jewish world (aside from the copious amounts of time in the bathroom)
SO what does that to do with feeling pressured to marry a member of the tribe? A lot. Like Tink said in the other post, there are a lot of "non-white" Jews in the world. And there are also a significant amount of converts. But what about that Jewish guy that falls in love with a Shiksa who just stands out? Like in the book (if you got that far) where Alexander's cousin is dating a high school cheerleader (the epitome of goyiche) and his parents are so disturbed they call her up, tell her he has an incurable blood disease and give her $100 to get out of his life. Would parents go so far? Or would they even think of something like that? -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 1:15 AMadam, ok i'll try to continue on with the book, i didn't get to the cheerleader bit but i did bring the book with me to israel, so i'll get back to you. yeah, there are jews who'd go that far or farther. plenty of jews disown their kids for intermarriage. that's mostly the crazy religious, but it also includes my own uncle in nj (fuck, i mostly grew up in jersey, course i know people like this) who's stated as much to my cousins. they won't marry non-jews anyhow - they way to jewish day school, then right after came to israel for yeshiva,etc., but i think he's a putz for having said that to his own kids.
milo, we're with you brother. -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 10:58 AMSpastic,
Being from New Jersey, I imagine you would relate to this book quite a bit. On the other hand, the story is told from a Jewish boy's perspective and that makes a big difference. There are a lot of people's parents out there who would sit shiva for their kids if they married a non jew, but then again, there are the kids themselves that feel their own pressure to marry a fellow member of the tribe, particularly being a male since some people beleive that Judaism is passed down through the mother.
I mean, Spastic, you said yourself that one of the reasons you moved to Israel was to socialize more with Jewish boys.
In Portnoy's Complaint, Alexander developed an obsession with shikses. Hardly uncommon. The massive guilt trip that he gives himself is funny to watch, but also something that I think maybe any person of our generation that associates themselves as an active member in the Jewish world (like it or not) must think at some point. No? -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Sat, May 1, 2004 - 3:04 PMadam, well i picked it up today and they were at the doctor's officethe and he was getting a shot to help his nut drop down or some shit. i couldn't get very far, bc the guy kind of annoys me. but i'll try again.
but jewish guys i've come to see as hotter and sexier and more desirable in every way, so it's not pressure or obligation, or what makes the most sense for marital bliss. went to a jewish wedding recently, here. i posted about it somewhere else, so forgive me if i'm repeating myself. the jewish men were dancing on their side, holding hands unabashedly and folkdancing in a circle. and i just felt so much love for them. this is something i think people who intermarry are often missing. they miss spending enough time in a jewish culture to be able to come to adore jewish people. bc you know what? we're fucking adorable! the jewish guys and girls at my housewarming party last night were all so cute. the men kiss each other, everyone is more affectionate, the atmosphere is more relaxed. could have something to do with those brownies i distributed. but hey! back to adoring jewish men. everywhere i look i see jewish men and all i can say is Israel IS PARADISE!
do come visit. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Sun, May 2, 2004 - 9:02 PMIt is a different culture over there. Men in Europe will kiss each other on the cheek, no problem. I can't argue with you, Jewish people are adorable.
It's clear that Israel is the right place for you. I think I'll stay in San Francisco, though. The Jewish community might be a little messhugah out here sometimes (Tikkun Olam, anyone?) but it is where i call home. -
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Mon, May 17, 2004 - 6:25 AMHey! I don't think Tikku Olam is meshuegna!!
I was just in SF for the first time...and loved it.
Maybe I should move out there with the crunchy Jews :)
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Re: i don't feel pressured, and i'm not religious. but i think it's only right.
Tue, May 4, 2004 - 7:22 PMThe first thing my father-in-law of blessed memory had to say about me was, "He's not Jewish!" My wife and I have now been together for 25 amazing years. It may have helped that I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood, that all of my childhood friends were Jewish, and that every woman with whom I ever had a meaningful relationship was Jewish. It may also have helped that I didn't have any particular "religion of origin", having been an avowed atheist/agnostic most of my life (I'm just now coming around to feeling comfortable with a non-deistic Judaism.) However, we both came from problematic families of origin (my parents divorced when I was six and my mother, with whom I lived, never remarried). There are ways to make it work and to have beautiful Jewish children, too. I know of other cases where "interfaith" marriages have worked well, but with a spiritual life based partly in Buddhism, not Christianity. I'm not optimistic about Judaism working with the latter unless you're a "messianic" Jew (that is, a Christian).
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Re: Jews must marry - UNLESS YOU'RE QUEER!!!!
Wed, April 28, 2004 - 7:39 PMI might feel some pressure to marry another jew if the frickin' government weren't trying to ammend the constitution to prevent me from getting married!
Funny, on thet note, i consider myself to be a 'lox and bagel' jew. When I was living in SF, I started going to shabbat services at S'har Za'hav (sp?). I've never been to a cooler synagogue. If I ever have the option and the right partners, I'd want to have the service there. -
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Unsu...
My 2 cents
Mon, May 3, 2004 - 4:29 PMI've gone through intense debate and argument with my parents regarding this subject. I'm an agnostic, and despise organized religion in all forms, so it didn't really seem important to me when I was younger. I also seem to be attracted to mostly non-Jewish women. A few of those shiksas were almost keepers, but every time my family would drive them away. There was one wonderful woman who I wanted to be my wife, but she broke up with me because "My family would never accept her".
I was bitter about that for a long time. Then I met a Jewish girl (the first one I ever dated), and we fell in love. I did feel pressure to marry her, and I did.
5 years later, it ended in divorce.
I learned a few things:
1. It is very important to marry Jewish, because of the cultural similarities (I am so uncomfortable at Christmas time), and to keep the Jewish people solvent.
2. However, there is no guarantee that a Jew-Jew marriage will be more successful as an interfaith marriage. My case in point!
3. In the future, I'm going to choose the best option for my personal happiness. Since I'm not religious, that whole aspect will not come into play. Parents be dammed, I'm not going to get strong-armed by them again (although I certainly understand where they are coming from).
4. It's hard enough as it is to find ANY woman to love, much less being limited to like 0.05% of the population.
It sucks. -
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Unsu...
Gots tha Hebrew flava
Mon, May 3, 2004 - 11:03 PMIf you'll allow a gentile to butt in...
Here's my story:
I'm a shigetz, but when I was 10, my mother and stepfather had a reform conversion (it was the 70's, I'm just glad it wasn't, you know, EST, or the unification church or whatever), and when I was 11, an orthodox conversion, and when I was 12, they dragged my goyische ass off to Israel for 4 years. Until I moved out after college, I lived in an orthodox Jewish household. I speak fluent (albeit a bit rusty) Israeli Hebrew (with a bit of a Yemenite accent sometimes), and do the yadda-yadda in Yiddish, and am to this day in command of more Kashrut arcana than I really have any reason to be.
Apart from the whole "shiksehs/shigetz are for practice" idea, what I grew up understanding was this: the matrilineal thingy makes it OK for women to marry outside MOT, but not men (marriage being = children for these purposes). I lost almost all of my connections with the local Jewish community, but recently, have started bumping into more and more. I'm sort of a curiousity, but I SOUND like "one of us".
On two occasions recently, some kind folks have either taken a shine and a pity to me, and offered to set me up, or else they're desperate to marry someone off, and look at me and say, "he can fake it".
So 2 questions:
1) How much of anyone's objections to intermarriage (I'm apathetic towards religion, so that's not an issue for me) have to do with Culture, and how much with heredity? I lived in Aretz Israel when there was a huge influx of Brezhnev's refuseniks, and later Falashas, whom a large part of the population had trouble accepting as Jewish because of cultural differences, even once the Rabbinate had established that their "Jewishness" was not to be questioned;
2) I feel uncomfortable being set up in general, but don't have any objections to dating Jews under less obnoxious circumstances, and it's occurred to me, because of my background, it might actually be a positive thing for some of the reasons y'all have discussed. Should I give it a shot?
And, the nick? The nick is a long friggin' story... -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Wed, May 5, 2004 - 6:28 AMabdullah, your story is VERY interesting to say the least....so i gather you never had a conversion yourself...only your mom and stepdad?
and the nick.....
tink -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Wed, May 5, 2004 - 5:27 PMHey Tink:
No conversion. My grandparents were thumpers of the most obnoxious variety, and so between them and my folks, at about age 11, I just sorta decided God was kinda like cigarettes: not for everybody. My parents were very respectful of my disinterest, for which I am very grateful.
The Nick (HIGHLY abbreviated version):
I was speaking Hebrew on the phone at work a few years back, a colleague thought it was Arabic, and started calling me Abdullah. It sorta took off from there. -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Thu, May 6, 2004 - 3:40 AMThen your hebrew must be awesome....cause most americans dont sound arabic when speaking hebrew....i guess its too much of the american accent. and yes i was wondering about the abdullah part...although i know there are jews from arabic lands that have/had arabic names....heck RamBam wrote some of his best works in arabic :)
thanks for sharing your story...its interesting although i would not term you a "curiosity" as...what else should people expect a guy who grew up in an orthodox home in eretz to be like whether he was personally jewish or not.
tink -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Thu, May 6, 2004 - 10:34 AMI think most Americans couldn't tell a Semitic Language from Martian. I live in Seattle, and we've got a pretty sizable Amharic and Tigrina speaking community, and your average Joe can't be bothered to notice the difference between those languages and Korean.
I lived in Rehovot in Israel, which has a big Yemenite neighborhood, so I mimicked the accents of my friends and their parents, a lot of whom were immigrants from the "Operation Magic Carpet" era. -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Thu, May 6, 2004 - 11:24 AMthats awesome, i have learned that the closest we can get to the way original hebrew is spoken is the way teimani jews speak hebrew!
i am not familiar with tigrina but i believe that both amharic as well as ge'ez are semetic languages... north and east africa is home to many semetic languages.
there is a theme i see... :)
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Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Sun, May 9, 2004 - 6:53 PMOne semester of Arabic did more for my Hebrew grammar than a dozen years of day school Hebrew classes. Once you have gutarals that are actually guttarals it all starts to make sense. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Mon, May 10, 2004 - 6:29 AMspeaking hebrew with israelis has done wonders for my Hebrew. (my accent is not bad, but my sister's is perfect!)
come, try it, you'll like it! (only, abdullah, i know you were a kid and all, but i don't think i'd recommend Rehovot as the ideal place to chill here! heehee) -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Mon, May 10, 2004 - 8:55 AMWhat's wrong with Rehovot? I have family there. -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Mon, May 10, 2004 - 10:34 AMYeah, what's happened? I leave for a little while (20 years) and the place goes to the dogs? -
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Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Thu, May 13, 2004 - 6:54 AMok, ok you guys have family there. i've got close family in nes ziona, the next town over. whoop dee fuckin' doo!
the town is for married people and their kids. as in BORING. unless you want to go hang out at the weitzman institute you're going to literally fall asleep walking and develop narcolepsy. so go see your family, then go to tel aviv or jerusalem. or even rishon. -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Thu, May 13, 2004 - 7:50 AMOh. So I guess it hasn't changed that much. Nevermind.
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Thu, May 13, 2004 - 9:22 AMthat's true. my cousins there all work at the Weizmann Institute. -
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Unsu...
Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Thu, May 13, 2004 - 9:27 AMI was in the Israel Scouts while I lived there. Are the various youth groups still active, I don't remember any besides Scouts and SchmuTz...? -
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Re: Gots tha Hebrew flava
Sat, May 15, 2004 - 7:45 AMSchmutz rules.....:)
Don't diss rehovot - its got the coolest campus of all there - the Agriculture Faculty of the Hebrew University. I spent 3 years there, studying barefoot on the lawns, swimming pool, gym brilliant library. And its only 30 mins from Tel Aviv.
But you are right it is a sleepy and very academic town. Nes Ziona is worse though....
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Re: My 2 cents
Sat, May 15, 2004 - 7:19 AMno SHIT. I want to find a Jewish guy...who is also into Eastern stuff. I meditate regularly and to yoga.
Talk about a needle in a haystack!
(I can't believe there's a straight Jewish guy in San Fran :)) -
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Straight Jewish Guy In SF
Sat, May 15, 2004 - 8:52 AMHey Zenchik, I think I will move to San Fran. What a thought, a straight guy in San Francisco.
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Unsu...
Re: My 2 cents
Sun, May 16, 2004 - 1:46 AMWhy do you say that? There are lots of us in San Francisco!! -
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my 2 sheks
Sun, May 16, 2004 - 5:15 AMoh shut up merpimp! you live in Oakland! and THAT, zenchick, is where most of the cute single and straight Jewish guys are in the Bay Area. i've scouted it out, and that's my report. you'll receive my bill, along with a list of possible men to date, within the week.
ok, on the scout question. we have Bnai Akiva, which likes to call itself the Israeli Scouts but it's co-ed and it's more like a chug of friends who hang out, but don't do nature stuff, my sister (13yo) is in that. then there's Sayaroot, which is a program of SPNI (www.spni.org.il/e) - Sayaroot in English is Orienteering, and it's also a co-ed Israeli Scouts group, but they do tons of nature activities and once a year do volunteer work in nature. My sister's group would like me to get involved with their Bnai Akiva. I think instead I may offer to become a Madricha of Sayaroot and get the kids to switch. -
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Re: my 2 sheks
Mon, May 17, 2004 - 4:57 AMhmm. how did i come to think you lived in oakland? LIAR. just kidding.
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Re: My 2 cents
Tue, May 25, 2004 - 7:04 AMI didn't see many straight guys...but then, I was visiting a drag queen when I was in SF. I really would like to move there, or NYC (my former favorite place, where I was this past weekend). Either and both have a great community for esoteric Judaism that is just not available to me here.
Ah, to not fit into any kind of box...it's a burden {sigh}
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Re: Jews must marry - UNLESS YOU'RE QUEER!!!!
Sun, September 16, 2007 - 9:33 PMWell, Milo, it's funny that a month after you posted, the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts decided that queers can get married-- so just come to Massachusetts and find a cool rabbi.
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Re: Jews must marry
Tue, May 25, 2004 - 6:47 PMI'd like to marry a Jew. Never thought I'd feel this way. Came upon me a couple of years ago. I don't know if I'm up for the whole interfaith thing. When I was growing up I used to hate the pressure at Christmas to "fit in" and have a Hannuka Bush. Then again, I was living in Baptist town USA.
I'm open to others, but I still look for Jewish guys first. Even better is a Jewish guy that doesn't freak out if you mention God, Tikkun Olam etc. I think I'm a reconstructionist Jew, but happily unaffilated with any temple.
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Re: Jews must marry
Tue, May 25, 2004 - 7:01 PMi'm queer...so the pressure of my family to be with a jewish girl...is something i can't even focus on or worry about ...i have to live my life ...not them. Plus it doesn't help much that i don't even know any jewish ppl beside my family. -
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Re: Jews must marry
Tue, June 8, 2004 - 5:47 AMyou should all move to israel. much more selection. -
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Re: Jews must marry
Tue, June 8, 2004 - 9:23 AMThat's nice! Nice comment. I'll take my passport out and hop on the next plane. While I'm at it, should I round up all the african americans and tell them to go back to africa? -
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Re: Jews must marry
Tue, June 8, 2004 - 10:06 AM???????????
If I were single, and not married, I would definitely consider moving to beautiful Israel and finding a NJG -- Spastic has always said the selection there was pretty meaty.... alas I am not, and no, I did not marry Jewish. Spaz, I am proud of you to invite us all. I wish I could really take you up on it.
Gov -
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Re: Jews must marry
Sun, June 13, 2004 - 7:05 AMgovega, you're always sweet. i can see why you're married and happy.
beth, your comment came from left field. so far from left field as to make me question your sanity. you ok? -
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Unsu...
Re: Jews must marry
Sun, June 13, 2004 - 12:08 PMand highly insulting.
and can't see how that had any relation to what spastic said.
T -
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Re: Jews must marry
Sun, June 13, 2004 - 12:56 PMHi. I did apologize to Spaz many many times about this post.
Once more, sorry Spaz. Didn't read the whole thread.
Please accept this apology once more!
Beth
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love and religion
Sun, September 16, 2007 - 6:54 PMwhile vast religious differences can pose a problem, sharing a religion doesn't necessarily guarantee a happy relationship. people shouldn't date or marry someone just because that person is (insert religion here). if that's all two people have in common, that really isn't a lot to build a relationship on.
we live in an open society, and as a result it can be difficult and somewhat unreasonable to limit one's romantic options to 2% of the US population. people fall in love with whomever they choose to, and if they choose a partner of a different background chances are their partner's religion had nothing to do with why they fell in love with them.
the Jewish community should continue to encourage in-marriage, but it should also not abandon those who intermarry. it's wrong to measure success and failure based on whether or not one's spouse is Jewish. the most important thing should not be who one marries, but how they raise their kids. and although it can be challenging, it is possible to raise Jewish kids if one parent is not Jewish. as far as conversion goes, pushing the issue doesn't work. you can't expect someone to convert when they haven't been welcomed in the first place. appeals for demographic concerns and appeasing uncomfortable in-laws are not going to attract potential Jews-By-Choice.
