What Really Happened..........

topic posted Thu, July 19, 2007 - 2:58 PM by  Unsubscribed
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I got this video link from my Mother yesterday..........very interesting stuff

www.terrorismawareness.org/what...ened/
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  • Re: What Really Happened..........

    Thu, July 19, 2007 - 5:31 PM
    True in broad strokes, but there are a few nuances that get lost. Dave Horowitz has the luxury of not seeing the shades of grey as he's a political conservative in America.

    I think a stronger case would have been made if just a little more had been said about the oppressive treatment of Jews in Arab lands-- this would establish a major flaw in the anti-Israeli argument of "why should Arabs be punished for Hitler?"

    Interesting thing that's not stated, but hinted at in this video is that while the Palestinians are Arabic speakers, they aren't Arabs. DNA testing has demonstrated that for the most part, they are the descendents of Jews who had converted to either Christianity or Islam (which probably adds to the reason for the Arabs' shabby treatment of the Palestinians.)

    One major error: The only genuine military victories the PLO ever had were in uprisings against Jordan. Being on the losing side of the Six Day War probably helped Jordan attain greater political stability.
  • Re: What Really Happened..........

    Sun, August 12, 2007 - 6:56 AM
    Where did the Sephardi come from?
    Doesn't 60% of Israel speak Ladino?
    What happened to the Arab-Israelis that help build Israel?

    It think it is pretty funny how this video ties in the Holocaust with Israel.
    I think we all know that the US never gave a rat’s ass about Jews. Especially during and after WWII. The US was very anti-semitic, and still is.

    Israel was form as a military tactical position. Remember US enemy #1 after WWII? Hint: Russia.

    I am pro-Israel, but this video is full of propaganda more than anything. It leaves out allot of stuff, even though there is a lot of good facts it still makes us look bad :( , or at least whiny. I hate say this but the US was taking advantage of the situation and using Jewish labor to do their dirty work.

    BTW, the Sephardi were the Turks living in Judea before and after 1922. Jews have been in Israel way before 1948.
    • Re: What Really Happened..........

      Sun, August 12, 2007 - 9:24 AM
      Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews did get caught up in the Holocaust as Germany occupied parts of North Africa as well as Europe (and of course, there were many Sephardim living in France, Italy and the Netherlands as well-- however, while that history is relevent-- it is much more important with regards to the Arab-Israeli conflict to discuss the history of Jewish-Arab relations.

      But Horowitz is looking at it through his own overly simplified American Neo-Conservative goggles that grasps none of the nuances of Jewish History or Middle Eastern Politics.

      Anyway, there are very high rates of intermarriage between Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Mizrahi Jews in Israel to such an extent that within a few generations the distinctions will be largely erased.
      • Re: What Really Happened..........

        Mon, August 13, 2007 - 3:20 AM
        Thank you Ian!!!

        I can't agree with you more.

        It pisses me off how Horowitz is trying to benefit from such a sensitive topic without any shame. This video is so poorly done. It almost makes the Holocaust trivial, and that Jews use this as a "race card."

        This video just pissed me off, because people that pro-Palestine will see this as obvious propaganda. It has facts mixed with over the top emotional hooks (e.g. "Jews are one of the most persecuted people on earth"), and very biased views. Oh my favorite line is "Arabs have waged a continuous war against Israel in an effort to finish the job that Hitler started." WTF?!?! That statement hurts our argument than anything else.

        Horowitz is an ass, and doesn't care.

        Unfortunately, we are scapegoats for all the whoas of the Arab world. I wished this focused more on the Arabs and their problems. And why they are at war with us.
        • Re: What Really Happened..........

          Mon, August 13, 2007 - 7:43 AM
          Yes, Mischiefmaker, this is such an obvious propaganda piece that it does nothing to benefit discussion-- the way to deal with someone who is ideologically wrong headed is to present facts and a logically coherent argument-- not put out an opposing ideological propaganda piece.

          One of my favorite blogs on the Middle East in general with a great deal of focus on the Arab-Israeli conflict is Middle East Analysis:

          middle-east-analysis.blogspot.com/

          The author is basically liberal (smart liberal, not knee-jerk), but also presents a diversity of view points on the Middle East conflict and has extensive contacts in Israel and with Arab reformists-- the ones being repressed by their own governments. Horowitz has nothing on this.
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          Re: What Really Happened..........

          Mon, August 13, 2007 - 4:08 PM
          you are right about this satement being wrong"Jews are one of the most persecuted people on earth"), .......Jews areTHE most persucuted people on earth.
          "Arabs have waged a continuous war against Israel in an effort to finish the job that Hitler started." WTF?!?! That statement hurts our argument than anything else.

          Whether is hurts us or not it is true that the arabs are tryig to finish hitlers idea. reference the Grand Mufti...........

          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mufti
          • Re: What Really Happened..........

            Tue, August 14, 2007 - 10:59 AM
            Yehudi,

            You will never get any disagreement from me on the following issues:

            1.) Haj Amin al-Husseini (the late Grand Mufti) was an active ally with Germany and espoused Nazi ideology-- including a desire for genocide.

            2.) Many Arab leaders espoused this and similar positions in public statements.

            3.) Violent antisemitism is celebrated in much of the Arab world-- and Arab hostility towards Israel tends to be either a.) anti-Semitic in origin; or b.) takes on elements of anti-Semitism even when the underlying factor is not anti-Semitic.

            However:

            1.) I really don't care if we are the most persecuted people on Earth, the second most persecuted, or the third most persecuted. I don't feel any more or less righteous one way or another.

            2.) There are Arab reformists who do want to make peace with Israel-- such as the Reform Syrian Party, which made a very public visit to Israel to speak to Israeli leaders. The problem is that groups like the RSP are persecuted by their own governments.

            Is there a serious problem with Arab societies? Yes, however, there are some brave, principled Arabs who are visionary enough to challenge their societies to change-- just like there were always dissidents in the old Soviet Union and Warsaw Bloc nations.

            The basic point though is that Horowitz and the makers of the video which was based on a pamphlet he authored have no interest educate us, inform us, or provide any insight into the situation. They are happy to misrepresent facts, and over-simplify the context. They play on our fears and discourage us from using our minds.
          • Re: What Really Happened..........

            Tue, August 14, 2007 - 12:34 PM
            In order to build a sustainable peace in Israel and the middle East, we have to bring moderates of both Israel and Arabs together. If we keep feeding extremist proganda and factionalist jingoism, we won't get any closer to building a sustainable peace with our Arab neighbors.
            • Re: What Really Happened..........

              Tue, August 14, 2007 - 5:45 PM
              Fyre,

              Thank you for posting this. I thought it was a good basic explanation of events that are difficult to follow for many. i sent it along to a friend who had never considered the Israeli side and had asked me for basic info. I thought it was easy to follow. You don't deserve criticism for sharing this, sometimes people are just waiting for a chance to spew. Thanks again.
              • Re: What Really Happened..........

                Thu, August 16, 2007 - 4:19 AM
                No one was criticizing Frye. The critique was for the authors of the video and the pamphlet upon which it was based-- which merited critique.
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            • Re: What Really Happened..........

              Tue, August 14, 2007 - 9:14 PM
              Amen, guys.

              I think most people like to think all conflicts consist of a "good guy" and "bad guy," when it's rarely that simple. And in this case, it's overwhelmingly complex.

              I see it happen on both sides. On the one hand, "We Jews have been through so much that nothing we do is wrong." I've also been told that black people can't be racist, and that women can't be sexist...apparently, some people think two wrongs CAN make a right.

              Or, on the other side of it, especially here in knee jerk Berkeley, I get a lot of "Anything Israel does is automatically wrong and ill intentioned," which is equally infuriating. One person I know who was always saying how the Israeli government should give the Palestinians more land responded to Israel doing just that by saying in all seriousness that "they gave them the crappiest land they could" and were "probably giving them land so they can get them in one place and kill them."

              No reflection on this film, however, which I have not yet had time to watch...sigh.
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                Re: What Really Happened..........

                Fri, August 17, 2007 - 7:55 AM
                "We Jews have been through so much that nothing we do is wrong."

                I have never heard anyone ever state this as their opinion. I feel that this is a concept taken out of context. When Jews are citing anti-semitism and bring up the oliong history of persecution, it is to use as a back drop for why the palestinians and the arabs are perpetrating another holocaust on the jewish people. People have always hated us, and allways will. Arab hatred for us is no different than the european pograms. No one says that it is impossible for jews/israelis to do wrong. But I suspect that many of the so called " human rights violations" from Israel are false acusations and stem from blood libels and general hate and a want to destroy us.
                • Re: What Really Happened..........

                  Fri, August 17, 2007 - 8:17 AM
                  >But I suspect that many of the so called " human rights violations" from Israel are false >acusations and stem from blood libels and general hate and a want to destroy us.

                  Perhaps. But many of them are not.
                  Those who have been persecuted have a responsibility NOT to persecute.
                  We've had a lot of persecution over the years. More than others. And therefore it makes it worse when we do it. Because we should know better.
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                    Re: What Really Happened..........

                    Fri, August 17, 2007 - 9:30 AM
                    Israel, while, like all other nations, imperfect, is a democracy, and as such the military is held accountable to the government and the government is held accountable to the courts when there is evidence of human rights violations. When the evidence warrants, soldiers and commanders are indicted, and if the prosecution puts together a strong enough case, they are convicted and punished-- the process is imperfect, but "due process" and "rule of law" is perhaps the best one can expect from human institutions charged to correct and remedy the actions of other human institutions.

                    However, some of the hyperbolic charges (the "Jenin Massacre" for example) one sees in the Arab and British press, are really just modern updates of the blood libel.

                    CinemaGirl-- you are reminding me of a line from Isaiah: "Remember the stranger at your gate, for once you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
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                    Re: What Really Happened..........

                    Fri, August 17, 2007 - 10:55 AM
                    I agree that we do have a responcibility not to persecute. However, we should also be aware of the ways that the ones who hate us are constantly trying to put us down. They are very creative and resourcefull. Throught the generations they have always adapted to an every changing world, finding the perfect ways to convince the world that we are evil.
                    • Re: What Really Happened..........

                      Fri, August 17, 2007 - 9:08 PM
                      New to this tribe and topic.
                      I was born and raised in Israel to parents who were born and raised in Montreal before they made "Aliya".
                      I did my time in the army, three and a half years (an extra six months because I was gung ho). Now I live in BC.
                      That's some background as to where I am coming from.
                      Now for this topic. I have not yet watched the film, but I have to respond to some of the things posted:
                      While I am Ashkenazi, I have plenty of Mizrahi friends and have been in long term relationships with Mizrahi women. No way do 60% of Israelis speak Ladino. I doubt 10% do.
                      While it may be true that no one sheds tears when Jews burn, that is equally true in relation to Cambodians, Philipinos, Guatemalans, Africans of every nation, women, Indigenous people of every continent, drug addicts, prisoners, Iraqis, Afghanis, Kurds, Armenians, Tibetans, Chinese labourers, migrant workers, sex trade workers, sex slave victims, etc... As individuals we may have plenty of empathy for people in pain, but as political societies we only care about those who belong to "our group". And so Israel cares about Jews (and more about Ashkenazis than Mizrahis), and other countries care about the middle classes and upwards of the dominant majority in those countries.
                      As for being the most persecuted, I would say that the indiginous of the Americas are way ahead of us in the race for most oppressed and most exterminated, and whoever is unaware of that should go to their library. But I also think that it is a ridiculous argument.

                      Israel has for years positioned itself above criticism due to the holocaust. Israel has for years used the holocaust as a trump card. Israel has perpetrated plenty of human rights abuses in the territories and in Lebanon, as many Israeli soldiers attest to. There are very active anti occupation organizations in Israel. Look into the Seruv movement. Many of the reservists who have refused to go to the territories and have gone to jail for that refusal, knew why they were refusing. It wasn't out of fear. It was out of the knowledge that there is no such thing as an enlightened occupation. Occupation corrupts! Always! I have personal friends and family members who served in infantry in the territories and in Lebanon, and they have some bad stories to tell. If we were put through the shit that Israel puts Palestinians through every day, some of us would take up arms too.

                      When I served in the IDF (1993-1996) there were many months when the death toll was pretty bad on the Palestinian side, such as 10 times more than Israelis dead, and yet if the Palestinians killed an Israeli, it would be painted there (and in North American media) as the Palestinians escalating the violence. The blinders are certainly on for many in Israel and many Jews elsewhere. This issue is often too clouded in ideology for facts to seep through.

                      Holding up the Grand Mufti as the sign that all Arabs have sought to finish Hitlers job is a bit much. What about Saadat, what about King Hussein, what about Edward Said and so many other Arab scholars and secular leaders who have sought normalization and peace over the years. Holding up the Mufti as a representative of all Arabs of all times could be likened to holding up the rabbi Kahane as a representative of all Jews or Rehavam Zeevi (Ghandi), or Baruch Goldstein, or Baruch Marzel or any of the other Israelis who have called for the killing of Arabs or who have actually bloodied their hands with indiscriminant killing. These people do not represent all Israelis and Jews (thank god), and the Mufti did not represent all Arabs. In fact for many years Jews lived in peace and prospered in Arab countries. Pretty much until WWI at the earliest or 1948 at the latest, there were prosperous Jewish communities in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Egypt to name but a few. Many were rich merchants and lived peacefully with little to fear of their neighbours. My first girlfriend's dad was from Halab in Syria and his family were well off and did fine until WWI when shit started happening to Jews. That does not justify the shit that started happening then, but to paint a picture of Jews always being persecuted by Arabs as far back as the Christian Era is simply false.

                      I have a lot more to say about this, but I will stop now as I am sure some will take offense with what I have already written, and I do not wish to cause people offense. I do not wish bad things upon Israel. My parents still live there, as do my two sisters, my brother and his family and many other friends of mine. I go to Israel once a year to visit. But I do have criticism about Israel, and am happy to share it. I can back it all up with a bit of research time. For the most part this information comes from growing up in Israel and seeing through some of the propaganda and then serving in Military intelligence as a information analyst, I can certainly say that that was an illuminating experience since often I'd get to read intelligence reports and historical intelligence reviews that differed from what I was taught in the media or in the public education system. In that respect Israel is no different than the US or Canada: History is written by the victors.

                      Peace be with you all!
                      Ilan
                      • Re: What Really Happened..........

                        Fri, August 17, 2007 - 9:27 PM
                        Ilan,

                        One of the greatest things about Jews and Judaism is that we are taught to question everything in order to learn for ourselves. This also includes questioning the way we ourselves behave and calling for a change when it is due. I welcome your opinions and find no offense whatsoever. You present yourself well.
                        • Re: What Really Happened..........

                          Sat, August 18, 2007 - 4:33 PM
                          Hen, since you addressed a post to me:

                          I know why he left. Fyre is the person who turned me on to tribe.net years ago and I wanted to encourage him to keep posting here. That is why I read and wrote a post on Fyre's thread. That is why I wrote him a supportive response.

                          As for my last post I was responding directly back to someone addressing me, and what I'd written. If posts are directed @ me I am going to fire back, in the case of someone I cared about like Fyre. If you don't like it, there is the ignore button, or you're welcome to call TOU on me. I think it sucks that newcomers and others hoping to find community continually find their posts ripped to shit because of someone else's need to display the criticism.

                          In any case, waiting around to rip the shit out of well-intentioned ppl's posts is the kind of thing which doesn't build a Jewish community on tribe.net. This is why I get upset. There is little to no Jewish community here and it is because of this kind of thing (IMO). It saddens me. I'm really thankful for the real-life community I have, but not everyone has that and with Jews @ 1/4 of 1 percent of the world's population it's important that there is some type of cohesion. And that is fostered through love and acceptance, not attacking newcomers and ideas because it feels good. That is what I am trying to say. We HAVE to stick together, or no more Jews. And the online world CAN influence the real community, and lasting relationships can be fostered, and maybe that is way to keep us all together in the 21st century, but not if we meet others with intolerance and labeling and constant nitpicking. We seem to be getting really far away from the idea of Shalom in our own community, @ least on tribe.
                      • Re: What Really Happened..........

                        Sun, August 19, 2007 - 8:49 AM
                        Ilan-

                        Thanks for adding a layer of complexity to the discussion. The first failure one can make to dealing with such a vexing set of problems is to oversimplify what's at stake, what the causes are, and what blinders even the most well intended people might be wearing.

                        Both the Judaism and the secular Jewish culture I have known since childhood is not afraid of discussion, debate, and self-questioning and so it has always seems odd to me to hear the voices of dogmatism. Where I lack experience, I try to listen to others' experiences. Where I lack knowledge or context I try to study.
                      • Re: What Really Happened..........

                        Sun, August 19, 2007 - 10:02 PM
                        Then don't watch the video . . .

                        it WILL piss you off.
                        • Re: What Really Happened..........

                          Mon, August 20, 2007 - 10:33 PM
                          I watched the video and more than anything it saddened me. I found it over simplified, super generalizing, very manipulative, completely one sided... I could go on.

                          There is no such thing as saying "Jews are like this or like that". No such things as "Israelis all ____(fill in the blank)". And the same goes for Arabs. The Arab people are a diverse bunch, and the fact that they speak the same language and share genetics does not make them a single block who think, talk and act in unison. This is especially true when inferring on a population based on their leaders.
                          What certain Arab (so called) leaders have said and done, during past and recent history, is one thing. Just as I do not take responsibility for the words uttered by Jewish/Israeli leaders that I do not like or disagree with (which is most of them), I do not hold all Arabs responsible for the words of Hamas leaders, Bashar Asad of Syria, Ahmedinijad, etc... For that matter, I am a Canadian citizen and live in this country but would not stand behind Steven Harper unless we were both being shot at ;-)

                          There were many facts in the video that are true, the problem is how you frame them into historical context and the conclusions you draw.

                          Example: while it is true that there was never a Palestinian state or an Arab government in Palestine; Does one therefore take the liberty to conclude that Arab villages that lived on land for 400 years and cultivated olive trees, and orchards, have no claim to that land?
                          And that a 12th generation Palestinian family in a West Bank village should pack up and move away to make room for a settlement of extremist fundamentalist Jews who are fresh off the plane from New York (or anywhere else for that matter, even ones born in Israel)? I have a very serious problem with that logic. Do we justify ruining the life of a Palestinian family in Jenin because some Jews lost their homes and businesses in Morocco 50 years ago (or in Poland for that matter)? Would you be willing to personally pay the price for criminal actions taken by the Canadian government and churches against the Indigenous peoples of this land even if neither you nor your kin were there or had anything to do with it?

                          Anyway, it is very complex and I am glad I posted and joined this debate. I will add more later.
                          Peace, Shalom, Salaam,
                          Ilan
                          • Re: What Really Happened..........

                            Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:28 AM
                            Thanks Ilan, it's interesting and valuable to hear your perspective, you have a lot to share.
                            • Re: What Really Happened..........

                              Tue, August 21, 2007 - 9:52 PM
                              When asked by people about my opinions on the Israeli-Palestinian or Arab-Israeli conflicts, I like to say that when talking about "right and wrong" in that region, everybody is wrong. The leaders on both sides have for years been betraying their people by not honestly striving for peace. In my opinion leaders in that region have been intent on "winning", and that outlook always meant that someone has to lose. It is a sad state of affairs that does no good for anyone. And as long as that is how the game is played in the Middle East, it is hard for me to envision a positive long term outcome for anyone.
                              That is why I left Israel.
                              For years I was active in the Peace Now movement, and in Israeli progressibe politics, and then one day I woke up and realized that I could no longer imagine what steps could be taken to reach an equitable, just agreement that respects all the different peoples of the region. This was not because no such steps exist, but because both sides have done everything they could for many years to make the other said mistrust anything they say. That meant to me that living in Israel would forever entail wars, violent occupation, an endless arms race, inevitable violations of human rights and many innocent people paying the ultimate price of their lives or that of their loved ones.
                              I do have an optimistic outlook for the future though. I'll share that in a future post.
                              Blessings to all,
                              Ilan
                              • Re: What Really Happened..........

                                Wed, August 22, 2007 - 3:28 PM
                                > When asked by people about my opinions on the
                                > Israeli-Palestinian or Arab-Israeli conflicts, I like to
                                > say that when talking about "right and wrong" in
                                > that region, everybody is wrong.

                                It's hard to get that message out and not sound like one is promoting desparation.

                                The same people who are pleased to hear me say that Israel was right to defend itself in war after war often get angry at me when I say that the policy that created the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza were both illegal and exacerbated the conflict.

                                Or when I try to explain that the institution of dhimma varied from era to era and nation to nation (very oppressive here and very liberal there) I am so often told that I'm being "too intellectual" or "not taking a side." But how are we to understand the present and see possible futures if we don't grasp what got us here? This is what annoyed me about the video that started this conversation.

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