http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#2ef605d3-297a-4daa-a67f-5b3156c69f20 Let me just start by saying I'm sorry -- I just grabbed "Jose" because that's what your avatar says -- I recognize that could seem demeaning, which wasn't my intention at all, and I apologize. But your comments and Ian's actually prove my point -- I could wear tattoo of an X if I dreamed up some personal meaning without automatically invoking Jesus because -- as Ian points out -- it was a pre-existing symbol that was taken over as an (dare I say...) Xtian symbol at the time of the early church. Not so with the symbols that Lia asked about. I suppose it would possible to find random hieroglyphs that are devoid of theological -- which is to say, idolatrous -- import, but Lia specifically mentioned the eye of horus, etc ... i.e., symbols that are inherent religious. And I think that Lia was properly concerned about the idea of adopting polytheistic imagery. One can have a crucified jesus tatoo'd across one's back and maybe even insist that it has nothing to do with one's Yiddishkeit, but lots of people would be skeptical... Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:41:41 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#2ef605d3-297a-4daa-a67f-5b3156c69f20 Paladin 2008-12-21T20:41:41Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#95e85520-0b2f-4ba2-a3d7-7989c77a19c7 Symbols are powerful icons. Maybe in 3oo years people wont care about a swastika. At the moment, I care. I dont want it dignified. Symbols will come and go like mans hatred. So be it. I was on my temples basebal team and one year we had an emblem that looked a bit like the stars the concentration camp used in the 40s. We decided to honor that symbol that year. The following year we changed it. Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:30:06 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#95e85520-0b2f-4ba2-a3d7-7989c77a19c7 Gothalot 2008-12-16T00:30:06Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#5a473807-f6d9-4467-bb46-cb7d85ab00a6 And my name is "Joseph", not "Jose". Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:44:18 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#5a473807-f6d9-4467-bb46-cb7d85ab00a6 En Transit / Joseph Dunphy 2008-12-11T14:44:18Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#5487705b-f225-4002-85ac-773b31de7b2e > Read her post again, Jose.... Nice try, Paladin, but you're changing the subject. You made a broad statement that happened to be historically inaccurate, that is still up for all to see. I pointed out the inaccuracy. The only question at this point is whether or not you have the maturity to accept that correction with good grace. I'm guessing that you don't, based on your last response, but I'm open to being pleasantly surprised. Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:25:34 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#5487705b-f225-4002-85ac-773b31de7b2e En Transit / Joseph Dunphy 2008-12-11T14:25:34Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#222953ba-b775-454b-90cd-03fca03ac7e9 Yes, but the letter "X" was part of the Latin alphabet long before Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire and is related to the Greek "Xi" or "Chi" which may very well have Phoenician (i.e. Semetic origins). The pictographic use of "X" to symbolize Christianity came only with Constantine; for the preceding centuries Christians had used symbols like the fish (not the cross) for their religion. Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:56:54 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#222953ba-b775-454b-90cd-03fca03ac7e9 Ian 2008-12-09T16:56:54Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#fbdb27f8-c3db-4e19-b37e-c3276f7b3030 Read her post again, Jose.... She specifically mentioned hieroglyphs that were representative of Egyptian deities. Chinese Jews don't have to stop using Chinese pictographs anymore than I have to stop using the letter X -- even if it is historically understood as short-hand for "the Cross" ... but having yourself tattoo'd with an Egyptian religious symbol, or a cross, or the word "Jesus" written in Chinese are pretty much all things that should give a thinking Jew pause. Tue, 09 Dec 2008 07:46:54 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#fbdb27f8-c3db-4e19-b37e-c3276f7b3030 Paladin 2008-12-09T07:46:54Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#12eb8a02-9902-4b7f-bc72-f980bce7424f I stopped going down on women that have little hitler mustaches,,,"down there" Mon, 08 Dec 2008 03:54:46 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#12eb8a02-9902-4b7f-bc72-f980bce7424f Sol 2008-12-08T03:54:46Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#750db0e2-a333-4a66-a3d5-15a2a8f62a1b > I love ancient Egyptian Baset, the eye of Osiris and others, > but I can't help but wonder if wearing it is like a African American > wearing a Confederate flag or some such. > what do you think? I think that as Rammessu II died about 3220 years ago, we can forgive and forget, especially as the ancients did. Israel, itself, ended up allying herself with Egypt in the years that follow. If one really wishes to dredge up that old grudge, why stop there? Are all things Italian suspect, given what the Romans did to Israel, and far more recently? The English were more than a little antisemitic during the Middle Ages - much more recently, still - and yet here we are using their language, and seeming to have no problem with that. Should we have one? This sounds like a recipe for xenophobia to me. Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:21:22 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#750db0e2-a333-4a66-a3d5-15a2a8f62a1b En Transit / Joseph Dunphy 2008-11-28T18:21:22Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#3a72e805-8de4-466f-83b7-dbf5915655b1 > Hieroglyphics were the characters used > in the written language of ancient Egypt. Read: Hieroglyphs were the characters used in the written language of ancient Egypt. "Hieroglyphics" is an informal way of referring to that written language - or languages, to be precise. Old Egyptian and Middle Egyptian both precede the development of the modified hieratic script known as Demotic found - during a comparatively brief historical era (no more than a few centuries, that's all) - before the advent of Coptic script, providing Egypt with something akin to a native alphabet, unlike the earlier Hieratic, which had been a sort of stylised hieroglyphic script; no spelling out of the words, yet, merely the providing of ideograms for those words, as is the case in present day Chinese. Hieroglyphics provided much the same, only with more pictorial content. Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:02:13 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#3a72e805-8de4-466f-83b7-dbf5915655b1 En Transit / Joseph Dunphy 2008-11-28T18:02:13Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#49a51ff7-4931-4a57-8dee-c2b4d95a52a4 > A hieroglyph is a symbol of a culture and religion that is -- by any definition -- > idolatrous: humans were revered as gods, as were forces of nature, and > multiple gods were worshiped. Those things are repugnant to Judaism by > anyone's definition -- even an atheist's. And hieroglyphics were the "operating > system" (or maybe "source code") of those beliefs. Sigh. That makes about as much sense as saying that Chinese Jews should be expected to refrain from writing in Chinese, because Kaishu represents Buddhism. Hieroglyphics were the characters used in the written language of ancient Egypt. Period. There is nothing inherently religious about them. The only thing that the use of the hieroglyphs symbolised was the fact that hieratic script hadn't come into use, yet. Could we please refrain from inventing our own facts? Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:19:53 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#49a51ff7-4931-4a57-8dee-c2b4d95a52a4 En Transit / Joseph Dunphy 2008-11-28T17:19:53Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#c7779fb3-f9ed-4f13-81a9-a7740dcc308e I think I would let my kid wear a pharoah costume on Halloween, but not-so-much if he wanted to dress like Hitler ... I'd let him get away with the first if it were clear that it was a costume for an upside-down, anything-goes Carnivale like Halloween -- like Jews dressing as Hamen for Purim -- and couldn't be misunderstood as an adoption of Egypt-ism (or whatever that word should be). A pharoah costume is "acceptable" because it's distant ... There are people today who adopt Nazi symbols because they want to revive Nazism, and people alive today who were personally affected by Nazism and could be significantly offended. Also, I suppose you could say that slavery is qualitatively different than genocide... and that not all pharoahs were bad guys -- the problem only arose when "there arose in Egypt a pharoah who knew not Joseph ... " (Ex. 1:5?) If the display were more permanent than a costume, or outside of a Carnivale festival, it raises another wrinkle besides the "identifying with the oppressor" concern you've voiced ... and maybe this is what you're feeling sensitive about -- A hieroglyph is a symbol of a culture and religion that is -- by any definition -- idolatrous: humans were revered as gods, as were forces of nature, and multiple gods were worshiped. Those things are repugnant to Judaism by anyone's definition -- even an atheist's. And hieroglyphics were the "operating system" (or maybe "source code") of those beliefs. Wearing a pendent with the word, Lieben isn't an inherent adoption of Nazism, and there's plenty of Jewish literature, secular and religious, written in German. Wearing a pendent with an Ankh necessarily connotes embracing values that stand in direct opposition to Judaism. It's not a neutral symbol just because it's old -- it would be like wearing a cross. And don't get me started on the idea of an Ankh tattoo ....... Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:07:41 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#c7779fb3-f9ed-4f13-81a9-a7740dcc308e Paladin 2008-07-26T20:07:41Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#8f2ef8d5-ca75-4887-abf8-e2a67a302a24 not any particular image, just a symbol of the oppressor type thing. It's really part of a larger question, is Egypt litterally "ancient History"? Or do we just not look past the Nazis and pogroms? If a lover got dressed in a Nazi uniform for Halloween or as part of a sexual role-play, I would take issue, but what about a Pharoah? Why is that not distastful? Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:56:15 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#8f2ef8d5-ca75-4887-abf8-e2a67a302a24 LiaBear 2008-07-25T20:56:15Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#b38318f9-b78f-4fc4-bf1e-b650af7515e9 I don't get a problem one way or another with ancient Egyptian symbols. Was there really a hieroglyph that was used by Egyptians to stand for the oppression of the Hebrews? Remember that the "Stars and Bars" was a flag used for a government whose entire raison d'etre was slavery and was latter used at lynchings of African Americans and Jews in the American South even after that government had been overthrown. The swastika (yes, I am aware it is an ancient symbol that had many more positive uses) was used by Germany as a symbol of their antisemitism and racism. I just can't think of an Egyptian hieroglyph that symbolizes our historical oppression-- if there was such a symbol, it's usage may be lost to memory. You should just do what feels right to you. Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:05:43 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#b38318f9-b78f-4fc4-bf1e-b650af7515e9 Ian 2008-07-25T13:05:43Z http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#05f3ba8e-82d4-4353-8db9-5132c758af7e I love ancient Egyptian Baset, the eye of Osiris and others, but I can't help but wonder if wearing it is like a African American wearing a Confederate flag or some such. what do you think? Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:17:55 GMT http://jewswithedge.tribe.net/thread/a53a779e-c9eb-4dd6-970c-4a2f36bb8890#05f3ba8e-82d4-4353-8db9-5132c758af7e LiaBear 2008-07-25T06:17:55Z