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I am 36 weeks pregnant with my second child, and I know that if I have a boy I will not be circumcising him. I have heard that there are more and more rabbis who are performing a non-violent "bris" and I was wondering if anyone has been to, or experienced one of these personally. When my daughter was born we had a lovely naming ceremony for her, and I would like my son (if it is a boy) to have a gentle welcome into the community as well.
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 12:04 PMI endorse circumcision on the grounds of "like father, like son". It looks nice and I'm glad I had a bris. If we can cut an umbilical cord, then we can cut foreskin. It's fun. -
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 1:41 PMputting aside the argument of whether or not circumcision is cruel and painful, my experience has been that a circumcised man has less sensitivity than an "uncut" man. So even if you believe that he will not be traumatized by the actually cutting, you're depriving him of much pleasure. -
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 1:59 PMI definitely cannot get behind the "like father like son" argument. Fathers and sons should have a lot more to bond over than whether or not their penises look alike. After all, a child looks like both parents. And as someone who has witnessed many births, the cutting of the umbilical cord is entirely painless. I do not see the comparison. I happen to prefer the look and especially the feel of an uncut man. So appearance is a matter of opinion. My mind is very much made up, I just want to know about alternative bris ceremonies.
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 2:31 PMThere's also the health matter of circumsized men being significantly less likely to catch STDs like HIV. Also, penile cancer seems to primarily strike uncircumcized men. -
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 2:42 PMThe STD thing is a myth, Both cut and uncut still have the same risks. As far as pleasure, I defy anyone to tell me my sensitivity has been reduced. There is nothing lacking in what I find pleasurable sexually due to being circumcised. Ultimately it's a parent's decision. However, as a Jewish man, it's a permanent bond to my culture and a sense of history passed though tradition. I would, without hesitation, circumcise my child. Though, this is about your choice and your choice as a parent.
As far as a bris, why bother if you do not intend to circumcise your child? There would be no meaning. -
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 2:54 PM> The STD thing is a myth, Both cut and uncut still have the same risks.
I've read studies that say otherwise. There is no way of insuring absolute safety-- but the statistics evidence is significant. -
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 6:12 PM>>There is no way of insuring absolute safety<<
With the exception of abstinence and masturbation... one of which is taught relentlesly, and the other which is ignored by most of (western) society.
As for circumcision, I'm indifferent. I'm cut, and my junk works most of the time for me. I'd probably feel the same if I wasn't. I find it's culture/society that makes things more difficult for me sexually. By that I'm including both cultural and religious Judaism and secular American society. At this point in time, neither provide safe or healthy spaces for sexual expression that are not monogamous heterosexual relationships. -
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 10:44 PMthe primary study that has been conducted on AIDS relating to circumcision was done in Africa with a population so riddled with AIDS to begin that the findings have been highly scrutinized. The World Health Organization does not recognize this as a significant truth, neither does the American Academy of Pediatrics. In fact, so many reputable medical organizations have changed their stance on circumcision that most insurance companies are not covering it anymore. It is considered elective cosmetic surgery. It is no longer being taught or treated as routine preventative care because there is no evidence to support that stance. As for the loss or sensitivity, the foreskin alone holds thousands of nerve endings, more in fact than the head or the penis alone, so there is no doubt that the removal of it causes a lack in the natural sensations. This is not a strike at anyone's manhood, just simple medical fact. When you cut off thousands of nerve endings, you cut off a lot of pleasure with it. But I guess you can't miss what you never had.
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Re: circumcision
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 10:50 PMI've really not heard any circumsized male complain about having been circumcized or that circumcision resulted in long lasting emotional trauma.
"Female circumcision" is mutilation-- is unquestionably harmful, provides no health benefits, and should be opposed-- however it is not analogous to the removal of the male foreskin which does provide some health benefits, and does not disable the function of the organ in question -
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Re: circumcision
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 12:31 PMI really think you ought to read up on more modern medical literature about the foreskin. Removing it does not provide any widespread health benefits. And as for hearing about men who complained, there is now an established statute of limitations for men who want to sue the doctor and/or their parents for choosing to remove their foreskin without their consent, and they are winning these lawsuits. There are most certainly men out there who resent having their penises permanently altered.
I do agree that the intent behind female circumcision is to harm the woman and is used as a method of control, as opposed to male circumcision which is considered honorable. But do not mistake, removing the foreskin also qualifies as mutilation. It is irreversible. -
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Re: circumcision
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 9:53 PM
For me it's a cleanliness issue. Uncircumcised dicks smell like budweiser and stale whitebread. *shudders*
I wouldn't wish that on any menschling. -
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Re: circumcision
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 7:45 AMyou know, really what I was looking for was some insight into the ever evolving states of judaism, and a new painless tradition to welcome our sons into the community. However, I suppose the "Jews with edge" do not have enough edge to accept what every other developed nation and 60% of our own has come to recognize. They are not even teaching these cleanliness myths in medical school anymore. And as someone who has been married to an uncircumcised man for 8 years and has caught many a whiff, your comment is full of the ignorance it implies about 75% of the worlds men. Get it together people, if god is offended by them, why did he put them on to begin with? And I for one do not have any intention of making a sacrifice out of my child's genitals. Now, are there any Jews "edgy" enough not to mutilate a child 8 days in this world, or should I take this one to the goyim? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: circumcision
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 8:39 AMOn a purely theological level, it's not that God is offended by foreskins, it's that the circumcision is an inscription of the covenant on the body of the Jewish male. Remember, Judaism ("Biblical Judaism" even) recognizes that Gentiles (even ones with intact foreskins) can be righteous. This is a very different concept than the Christian idea that only their religion is any good.
Also note that Moses, the greatest of all prophets, was never circumcised. So you certainly have theological grounds to stand upon-- no matter which way you want to go.
You asked for opinions, you got them; however, it seems you had made up your own mind before anyone responded.
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Re: circumcision
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 8:49 AMif you read my original post it is not discussing the validity of circumcision, but the alternative ways to welcome a baby boy into the community. As I said, my daughter had a gentle welcome, and I would like for my son to have the same. But I feel that most of the responses I received were a defense of circumcision. I made clear originally that I had no intention of making that choice for my child, and am simply wondering about other ceremonies. The birth of a baby should be celebrated, and we did celebrate my daughter's birth at shul, should my son be excluded from such a welcome? But instead of insight on alternatives I got people making comments on how an uncut dick smells.
Thank you, Ian, for the first response that even mildly addresses the content of my original post. -
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Re: circumcision
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 4:05 PMWell, I'm sorry that I misunderstood your initial question.
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Re: circumcision
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 7:21 PMjerusha,
I strongly support and understand where you are coming from. It sounds like you created something less than orthodox for your daughter, why not do the same for this coming child?
Is your Rabbi supportive?
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Re: circumcision
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 10:20 PMFemale "circumsision" isn't analagous to male circumcision. The analagous operation would be the removal of only the hood that covers the clitoris--the closest thing to a foreskin that females have. What is actually done in these operations is removal of the entire clitoris at the very least. If an operation analagous to female genital mutilation was performed on a man, it would not be circumcision. It would be a removal of the glans (head) of his penis.
Much to my mother's dismay, I intend that any hypothetical future son of mine who wants to be circumcised is welcome to do so once he reaches an age when he can make that decision for himself.
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Re: circumcision
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 12:50 PMthe rabbi at the only shul I have attended is a bit on the traditional side, I'm not sure that she would really understand. But she may do the ceremony anyway. I also will support my son should he choose to circumcise later in life, I just won't be the one to make the choice for him. And I do agree that female circumcision is not comparable to male circumcision, as the very purpose behind it is to eliminate a woman's pleasure and control her sexuality, an intent that does not sit behind male circumcision. -
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Re: circumcision
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 2:34 PMmaybe you can think of another "offering" to make. Some cultures cut off a baby's hair as a sacrifice.
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Re: circumcision
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 6:03 PMIf a man decides to sue his parents for circumcision without his consent and wins...
would any monetary settlement he receives be severance pay?